John expects Catherine to accept his father's demands and end the fight for a trial for the case. Is he wrong? Do you think he is right to demand this? Do you think Catherine should understand his situation? Should she quit the case for love? Should John marry her without the allowance? What do you think is the right thing to do?
AND consider this. You are madly in love with someone your parents don't like. They threaten to not pay for you to go to university if you continue with the relationship. What would you do? Be as honest and reasonable as possible. Explain your decision.
Feel free to engage in a discussion with others. Comment on their ideas. ( You may disagree but try to be relatively polite)
To begin with – no I strongly disagree with John’s father’s decision to go to such extremes as to end their marriage because he ‘does not like’ Catherine. I believe it is reasonable for parents to step into situations that are on edge; however cutting off John’s allowance is simply not a reasonable solution. Instead, he should have warned John of any possible risks or put forth his opinion, then treated him like an adult and given him a voice of his own. On another note, John should learn from what problem initiated from and fight for his own rights. In my personal opinion, John is absolutely wrong for expecting Catherine to end the trial in which they have put so much in for (e.g. money, time, reputation, education, etc). As fiancé of Catherine, it is his role to support and encourage her through whatever the case, especially those that she feels so strongly about. He should have faith that they will be successful and that even if that is not the case that they will find a way to regain what they lost. Lastly, the case should go on, for it would be completely wrong to have given up so much for it to all go to waste, and for your family’s reputation to be left at such a disgrace from so many people. I believe if they are in love enough, they will find a way to overcome this scenario – John must trust and stay committed to Catherine, and Catherine on the other hand must understand his position (because really, he is being asked to choose between his family and his fiancé).
ReplyDeleteAnd for the second part of the question – I honestly believe that I would fight for my right to get an education and love. I would continue with the relationship, try to convince my parents, and if I were to fail, then would seek new jobs or ways to provide myself with money to pay for university. I have quite a stubborn personality and (to an extent) do not like people telling me what to do, therefore I can only imagine myself to be willing enough to fight for what I believe, which is the right to be with who I choose, meanwhile get an education, and all with my parents acceptance (or tolerance). However if this is too unrealistic, I may stay secretive about my relationship – this way I would get still get both, and keep (mostly) everyone satisfied.
ReplyDeleteSecretive is hard though. Because it never stays a secret for long!
DeleteI agree with Indi. I believe it is very wrong for John's father to demand that they end the fight for a trial and threaten to cut John's allowance. Basically, because John is an adult, his father has seized the last bit of control he has over him; his allowance. I think it's quite immature of him to threaten his son to get what he wants, just because he doesn't want to be embarrassed. As Indi said, he should have spoken to John and the Winslows and expressed his opinions and discussed it in a mature manner instead of blackmailing them to get what he wants. In doing this he risked his relationship with his son and his future daughter-in-law's family. I'm sure that Catherine can understand his reasons behind this demand, however it hardly justifies his actions.
ReplyDeleteI believe that it is extremely selfish for John to expect the Winslows to abandon this case that they had spent so much money and time on and had risked so much for, just for the sake of him being able to keep his money and marry Catherine. I also think that it's rude of John to expect Catherine to put an end to their family's case because she does not have control over it and it's selfish to guilt Authur into giving up the cause for her. I believe Catherine was right in expecting John to marry her despite the loss of his allowance, whilst their family continues with their fight. If he truly loves and appreciates her, he would never expect her to end their fight over it and he would support her beliefs and opinions. John's father is ultimately forcing him to choose between his fiance and the money. If he truly loved her, there really wouldn't be a choice to make, him and Catherine would find a way to get by without his allowance from his father. I truly feel that Catherine should not be with John if he really expects her family to give up their fight and if he can't part with his money for her. I think if i were put in the same position, i would find a way to make it work with or without the support of my parents. I would most likely work to gain the money to pay for uni by myself and I would learn to get by on my own. If my parents did force me to make that choice, i think i would choose the relationship over the money more to prove to them that i can be independent and that I'm not helpless without their financial support than because i would foolishly throw away money for a boy. With or without the love, i would be angry that my parents tried to blackmail me like that instead of talking to me about it, and it would ultimately ruin my relationship and my respect for them.
^^ that would be after i tried to convince them otherwise or compromise with them.
Delete(Wow that was long.)
Interesting answer LUCY! I'd be SO angry with my parents if they tried to blackmail me too. Like Indi said my stubbornness would kick in immediately and I'd probably tell them i don't want their money.
DeleteYeah, i think i would be the same. The fact that my parents were forcing me to make that decision and threatening to take away funding for university would probably only make me more likely NOT to choose the money.
DeleteLucy I agree with you! If my parents were to do so, I would try to support myself - both for love and also for fact that if they were to underestimate my ability to be independent and think that I would not cope without their money, I would need to prove that I am to them.
DeleteI agree with Indi and Lucy too. John's father shouldn't decide his son's marriage just becuase he doesn't like the Winslow family arguing the miitary. That case and his son's marriage's case are different and there should be better solutions than cutting off John's allowances. I often hear that the bride's father influences better when deciding to marry so I think this is not what John's father can choose. Also, I think John's advice to Catherine of giving up the trial is not a good way of solving the problems. Like Indi said, a fiance is a person who encourages the other when they are on the edge. In this case, John is not supporting Catherine at all: he is just looking at his future. I think he is just afraid of his future because he will not survive without the precious allowances and have to live with a feminist who is a family member of a family that is opposing the military. If I were her, I'd rather give up marrying and live with the family and support the trial because there are no benefits in marrying him: no money, no freedom.
ReplyDeleteFor the second question, I think it depends on the situation. If I did very well in university and was so obsessed with it, I'd plead them to continue paying for it but I would lie to them that I broke up with whoever it is and continue the relationship behind them. However, if I didn't do well and I hated going to university, I'd give up university and stay with the person I love. (I don't know if this is the right way to answer. sorry)
I agree with you Misaki. If John chooses money over marriage he just isn't worth marrying. The jerk! Catherine's too smart and principled for a guy like that! I think she knows he's going to dump her. She's never been secure about the marriage.
Deleteinteresting that you would hide your relationship. Perhaps a dangerous idea but I can't say. Maybe I'd do the exact same thing if I was desperate for him.
WOW awesome detailed and interesting answers so far!! well done girls. COME ON BOYS!! Lets hear what you have to say. There are NO RIGHT or WRONG answers. Its all a matter of opinion and what you value and believe. ALL OPINIONS WILL BE RESPECTED EVEN IF WE CHALLENGE THEM. COME ON BOYS!!!
ReplyDeleteAND WE WANT TO HEAR FROM THE REST OF THE GIRLS AS WELL!
ReplyDeleteI strongly agree with Indi, Lucy and Misaki. I believe it is very inappropriate of John's father to demand the trial to end and threaten to cut John's allowance. Like Lucy said, it is very immature of him to blackmail his son, who is basically an adult now, of what to do, just for the sake of his reputation. Instead of using threats, this issue should be discuss with the Winslow family in a reasonable matter. Adult John should be able to know his rights and fight for it. Also, it is wrong of John to expect Catherine to accept the demand, especially after all the financial risk and time they've took by now. As Indi said, it is his role as her fiancée to encourage and support her in times of hard, but in this case, he is really not supporting her. However, John is just really concerned about his future, whether he (and Catherine) will survive without his allowance, as Misaki stated. In my opinion, if John really loves Catherine, he would be willing enough to give up his allowance for her, and would be willing to find a way to overpower this problem. It would completely waste the risk they took for this case. In Catherine's side, she should understand his situation, considering that John is questioned to chose between two people he really cares about. At the same time, she should also encourage him.
ReplyDeleteFor the second part - I would compromise with them first. For me, I set my priorities first, but I try to balance it with other things. I also like things where everybody is content. If it does not work, I would show my parents how I can be independent. However I would like it if my parents would support me. But, I don’t understand how my parents threatening me would affect my love for the person. ((This is really hard for me Jill))
That's the problem Beatrice. Life can be hard!! lol. Good and thoughtful answers that consider many perspectives.
DeleteSo true Beatrice! If John truly loved Catherine, he would be willing to give up the money and risk whatever has to happen in order for them to be together. And also with the second part how you said that you would try to balance things with others - that really shows how kind-hearted you are! I initially didn't think about trying to find balance and kindly negotiate but now that you said that, it would be much more convincing to approach it that way, because parents would feel like they are needed too!
DeleteUhh.. I agree with Indi that John is totally wrong with expecting Winslows to give up the case, because they've actually put too much time and money on it, but I don't really agree with the argument that cutting off the allowance for John is not reasonable. You know, John is already an adult, as Indi says, and must be treated as adult, which also means that he should have enough power to live independent. He just couldn't say stop being against the government and whining just because he doesn't want to get his allowance cut off. This could be an argument that is bit stuck in perspective of 21st century, but if he really loves Catherine, he should try to get independent from his parents and try to achieve(?) the match successfully without getting any pressure from his parents, and try to support his family with his own power.
ReplyDeleteAnd for the second part, if I am threatened by my parents to pay for university on my own because of my relationship, I would just pay it by myself. Not only reason for the love, but it would actually benefit me for my future life. It is really simple principle that something that looks very hard to others could be easy for us if we are used to it. So if we get used to harsh situations, such paying university by ourselves, it will actually help us to maintain our mental more peacefully while others fall in misery.
DeleteI think we can't blame John's father for cutting off the allowance and disagreeing with the marriage. To start with, he is a soldier and he is in position that he has no other options than supporting the navy. I think his opinion towards the marriage is forced by the navy and government, not directly but in a roundabout way. Moreover, you can't blame John for following his dad and expecting Winslows to give up on the case because he's still dependent on his father's finance which means he has no other options than listening to his dad for most of the time. I think he is just forced and kind of brainwashed by his father. Furthermore, I don't think Catherine should give up the case for love and she's not the kind of person who's going to give up on human rights. She doesn't have to understand his situation because if that's what he says, even if he got brainwashed(?), I don't think he deserves Catherine, the strong lady who fights for right. If he really loves her and he thinks that lady is his life companion, he would try to find a way to live without allowance from his dad. The perfect scenario (in my opinion) is this; Catherine not giving up on the case, John becomes his own master and live happily forever.
ReplyDeleteSecond part of the question - I would choose to pay on my own. I totally disagree with Indi about staying in secret relationship. Parents who say no to relationships get angrier to secret relationships. It wouldn't be a good idea to keep it secret. And as Ms.Jill said, nothing can stay secretive forever. I would try my best to study and work at the same time, as well as keeping the relationship. But if I find it too hard, i'll apply for a leave of absence and work for a semester or so and work as hard as I can. It would be my chance to be independent from my parents and this kind of situation will teach me good lesson for my future, as tom said.
Wow very mature answer. I think its interesting what you say about the danger of a secret relationship. very well evidenced ideas.
DeleteTrue. I see your point about the secret relationship, however I don't think studying would solve the problem about your parents taking away the money for your education - in other words, I still don't think they would be willing to allow you to continue the relationship just because your doing extra study. Wouldn't you want to prove to your parents that you are an adult and that you can be independent? Don't you think that it would help them open their eyes and realise that you love that girl and will not just back down to whatever they suggest? It may even make them change their minds...
DeleteI agree with Beatrice, Misaki, Indi and Lucy. John's father was in no position to have issued an ultimatum to the Winslow family and jeopardize John’s future with his fiancé, by cutting his allowance with knowledge that John could not financially support the both of them. Referring to Lucy’s statement, reputation has become a top priority for the Weatherstone’s and having being called the “nation-wide laughing-stock” was unacceptable for John’s father. As Indi has stated, John’s father should have consulted the Winslow family and put forth his viewpoint on this issue instead of black mailing John with the last bit of control that he had on him. John, being a grown man that earns his own income and has enough reminding from his feminist fiancé about rights should have the knowledge that he has a choice in this situation. Although John’s father’s actions are unreasonable and outrageous, Catherine cannot do anything to change his mind but just accept his opinion. The choice that John must make does not affect Catherine at all, she doesn’t question John if the marriage will still go on, if John truly loved Catherine, he would defy his father. As Catherine’s fiancé, John should be more understanding, supportive and sympathetic. If I were in John’s position I would try to show my parents to see reason. If my parents actually played the role they’re supposed to; caring, encouraging and supportive, they would help me in my time of need. If I am without their help, I would get 2 jobs to help pay for my university and if the income I make is not enough then I’ll have to settle with putting university on hold until I have enough money. For me, I would rather be in love and poor than alone, bitter and financially stable.
ReplyDeleteInteresting mature and thoughtful Ellie.
DeleteOmg can't type
ReplyDeleteI agree AND disagree with everyone, who said that John's father shouldn't issue an ultimatum, because we have to look at issues like this in two points of view. On one hand, the "emotional" side, John's father had no right at all not to allow the couple to be together for a matter of honor and he shouldn't avoid it. The simple fact of the father forcing the couple, and the other family, to do what HE wants, shows lack of understanding and caring, which shows he does NOT wants the couple to be together, and his son, John, accepting this fact and EXPECTING Catherine to do as SHE is told, shows even less caring and love, for the simple fact that he did NOT fight for what he "loves".
ReplyDeleteBUT, on the other side, a reasonable way, John's father is doing his best to keep his pride up, even if it might harm his son's engagement. And of course, his son must (or should) be most supportive with his father, no matter what it costs. Thus, by looking at it in both sides, John's father is right to do what he's doing, BUT he also should be UNDERSTANDING and CARING, just like his son should've, if he actually WANTED to be with Catherine. On the other side, Catherine would have two options, depending on both sides of her "family" (parents and brothers + John), if John wills to be with her and the case is considerably lost, the right thing would be to give up, BUT if the case is so important (and it is), and they have good chances on winning, and John truly wills to be with her, then John should be the one understanding the situation. In both cases, thus, John's father should be understanding for John and/or Catherine, and if he is not, then, in my opinion, John should do the best he can (find new jobs) to sustain himself with Catherine, just like said by Indi, Lucy, Misaki.
Wow very mature and considerate of both perspectives
DeleteFor the second question, I would say that although I might madly love the person, and if my parents do NOT approve it, I might... maybe... consider the other side, see if the person feels the same for me as well, see if it would actually benefit me to stay with the person. However, if I KNOW the person is the best choice I would possibly choose, or I am struggling with the University, as said by Misaki, I would well quit University, find a job on my own (as painful as it could possibly be) and say to my parents: "It's my life, my future" (again, as painful as it would be to give up of my own family)
ReplyDeleteI do agreed and disagree with Ellie, indie, misaki and Beatrice arguments. John father should not has threaten his son or the Winslow family by black mailed him or any circumstance. Discussing this matter is a really wise thing to do. As we know it, John and chattering is getting married. Weeding sure are an important event for Catherine. But, In order to proceed this weeding his father need to sacrifice his beloved son, Ronnie due to his problem that's has troubled him. Perhaps it is a right for Jong's father to understand this situation. .
ReplyDeleteHowever, as I say before, I should not completely agree with it. John father might have a good point. We all should understand that john father worked on the military. If the case were still continue, Johan's father might loose his job and he might has ruin his reputation. Perhaps it's wrong for him to black mailed him instead of discuss it in proper way and I believe there would be a strong reason for him to black mailed the Winslow family. Perhaps they has gone too far or threaten by the higher officer to close this case.
Perhaps by choosing to delay the weeding and proceed the matters about Ronnie would be a wise thing. Even is they were married and the case is closed by forced, Catherine and john won't be as happy couple as they should be. There would be a lot of conflict. John father would dictate his son and threaten their live or more obviously a conflict between john's father and Catherine's father. I suggested that let's the case succeed and proceed to the weeding matters.
Very mature answer Dennis!
DeleteIf my parent threaten me just because I were in love, I would had discuss this matters as what normal people does. if they insist not to allowed me to be in love I would protest and demands an explanation and if they still insist and they threaten me even more, I might not follow what they say and I will do as what I believe is right. After all, if I were in college I should has no needs of my family to tell me what to do. But therefore, if my parent has a strong reason, I might followed what they says. It's for the best and I believe love is not everything. Perhaps I might build our relationships after the college.
ReplyDeleteInteresting and thoughtful reply Dennis
DeleteI agree with dennis
DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Gibeoms ideas about the reaction of John's father. Although it can seem a bit extreme, it was the best that John's father could do in order to prevent Authur Winslow's actions in order to recover his son's honor. He could have been forced to make a decision that would force his son into the edge of a cliff. In John's case by continuing the case John wasn't able to get Catherine's dowry since it was all spent for the case. Because John thought he couldn't live on with his income alone without the allowance of his father's allowance. I think that Catherine both Catherine and John has the right to choose what they want. If John doesn't have the confidence to support her without the money I think that he could give up marrying her even though he loves her.
ReplyDeleteWow that's a very interesting and mature answer.
DeleteIf my parents told me that they aren't going to support me anymore if I say I would continue my relationship with her I wouldn't give up my love. There are many opportunities for me to overcome that obstruction. First, I could actually quit university and continue with my love. Secondly, I could study very hard and claim the top seat in my university and earn myself a scholarship. I'm an adult now. I think that I really don't have to obey and agree to whatever assertiveness my parents want me to do.
ReplyDeleteOKAY!!!! very mature. Going it alone would be very very hard though!
DeleteIf i was told that they aren't going to support me anymore i would just stick to my relationship, as it is the only thing that i have left...and i would get even with my brother because of that.
ReplyDelete